Episode 6 | Stick in the Mud Managers - An interview with Jason Flejter
Ron:
All right, everyone. Welcome back to it's your business lead it podcast. And in this special episode, I'm going to be interviewing a friend colleague and former client by the name of Jason Flejter. Jason is the director of manufacturing for a, a local Southern California manufacturing firm. He'll tell you all about that in a few minutes. I'm really excited to introduce you all to Jason. So Jason, welcome to the cast.
Jason:
Hi everyone. And thanks Ron. I, I really appreciate it. it's an honor to be asked to be on this podcast. I'm I'm excited for this. Well, cool.
Ron:
I'm glad you are.
Jason:
Uh, a little bit about myself. I've worked, I've worked in manufacturing for almost two decades in various industries from aerospace to automotive. I started out on the production floor as a welder and over the years, I slowly made my way up through the ranks, having various positions in production management. planning, purchasing logistics and inventory controls, operations management, which brings me to my present day job of building micro factories that produce solar panels from a nonprofit business model. So, , it's, uh, it's been quite the journey and, and I love what I do
Ron:
Yeah, I can imagine. And wait a minute. Did you just say not for profit and manufacturing in the same sentence?
Jason:
Absolutely. And it's, something that, coming from a lean management perspective, it's been hard for me to wrap my hands or my head around nonprofit business model, but I got to say it's completely different and refreshing to say the least.
Ron:
Yeah. And I know we could have another conversation. I know when we went to lunch the other day, you were telling me about some of the insights and the light bulb moments that, that, and that not for profit perspective, brought to your view on manufacturing. That's not what we're here to talk about today. There is one thing that, that stood out as you're sharing a little bit about your background, and that was that you've been in a number of different positions, starting from the shop floor and working your way up. And I'm curious, how did that affect the way you see manufacturing, leadership?
Jason:
That's a great question. I can remember when I was on the shop floor and I was welding every single day and I saw changes made on a regular basis and there was some changes that you would just scratch your head and you always felt it was, maybe in us versus them. Then as I slowly started working my way off the shop floor I was given an opportunity by the company I worked for at the time they started to pay for my school while I pursued a management degree. Once I was back in school and I got into expediting was the first position that they gave me. But as I started to get into some of these roles, I would always fall back on my experiences of what I saw from a shop floor perspective. Right. I remember at times saying when I get to be a manager, I'm going to make sure that I don't the same mistake. From that perspective of what are your frontline workers seeing. I think it was very powerful experiences that have led me to my success today.
Ron:
Yeah, no doubt. I mean, when you bring that shop floor perspective into a leadership role, it gives you the ability to have some empathy for what people are going through and the frontline employees that are looking at you going, who made this stupid idea. I mean, it just, gives you such a different perspective.
Jason:
Yeah, it sure does. And, and like I said, I just I'm grateful for having those experiences. Because I think it makes me a better manager today.
Ron:
Sure. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And as you know, my background is very similar. I started my career in a pit underneath a Chevy Silverado in 1984, literally in a pit, I had to crawl up out of a pit at the end of every day, so totally get it. So Jason, one of the things that I wanted to bring you on this cast and talk about was a podcast that released recently called stick in the mud managers and the idea of a stick in the mud manager. And it doesn't matter whether it's a lead, a supervisor, frontline manager, a kind of mid-level manager, director, et cetera, is that sometimes they become the stick in the mud that resists change. And that's really what that cast was all about and how to deal with the stick in the mud manager who resists change. So when you hear that phrase, the stick in the mud manager, what comes to mind for you?
Jason:
I don't want to say that I cringe, but it could be some of that that could be difficult to work with or for, maybe they're super controlling or they're hardheaded or even close minded. They could be very probably, like very matter of fact, or and sometimes they can be problematic. those are my first, first thoughts that jump to mind.
Ron:
Oh my gosh. And I'll tell you what I get so excited when I hear your response to that question. Because, you know, a couple of years ago I created a YouTube series called land and the knuckleheads, and these are the people that I been talking about, the whole hardheaded manager that doesn't listen, that doesn't want, hear perspectives other than their own. And they just want to keep it the same. And then you get these other managers who are so stuck in this, this rule book, following the rule book mentality, and that's all well and good when you live in a, in a really fixed kind of low change environment, but, um, who lives there? <laugh>
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a fine line. When I think a lot of managers get hung up by, let's say from a manufacturing perspective and this could just from a process point of view if a process is working oftentimes people don't want to change that process because it is working. But on the other hand we have to always take in mind, , continuous improvement how do we make those processes better? So that's where you can definitely have a challenge on your hands with that stick in the mud manager, for sure.
Ron:
Yeah, absolutely. And you're foreshadowing a future podcast episode, if it ain't broke, break it anyway, don't fix,
Jason:
Oh, break it
Ron:
Anyway. I'm not one of those managers that wants to just keep things the same for the sake of keeping it the same. I mean, there's always an opportunity for continuous improvement, so yeah. How would you assess the impact of the stick on the mu in the mud manager on organizational performance? What, what is, what's the impact that they create?
Jason:
Well, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is, how does this person affect the culture? is this manager's behavior or personality cancerous are there any indicators or recorded incidents that are affecting production output, or maybe from a quality perspective, all of a sudden you see a dip in, , mistakes or creating good products. So, other areas that can't be measured, um, using metrics how do you, how do you understand those things? So an example might be team dynamics within that person's department. Does that person, or, or do people work well each other, or even as a team in the department or is there some sort of chasm between workers and how does this manager's behavior, have an effect upstream or downstream, right of their department. So there, some things can be measured in some things can't be, so you really have to take a good, hard look and deep dive at how does that be behavior really affect organizational performance? Because it's not just in the production aspect of things, there's other areas that it can deeply affect.
Ron:
Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought that up because I think is really crucial. Another cast we did recently is looking at the process of how cultures are built and how you change them. If you don't manage the details around culture is a really great way of thinking about, about organizational culture. And that is that organizational culture is how my manager treats me. And I think it's, it's kind of a micro look, but I think it's absolutely on point. And when you say a manager and how they treat their employees, is there a chasm between the different employees? The fascinating thing about that, Jason is that often employees don't have the, the emotional intelligence or the maturity to know how to deal with conflict on their own. So who do they go to? They go to their manager.
Ron:
And if the manager is the creator of the chasm in the first place, they've got out nowhere to go now, and they're just, they're going to be left trying to figure it out and you get different groups. And it's almost like certain employees are, are, are voted off the island, if you will. And, and they're left defend for themselves. And that that's where culture starts to impact the actual productivity and the quality and the efficiency measures as well. So it definitely does affect both. You're absolutely right. I'm curious though, let's think about this stick in the mud manager, a little deeper, what do you think causes that behavior? Why would a manager go there and, and act that way?
Jason:
I think the root we're here that we're look looking for honestly, is, is it comes down to fear, fear of change. Yeah. Perhaps fear of failure, maybe fear of losing control. I think that it's a person's natural instinct to, be fearful of change. Right in, in so many different regards, whether it be in a work environment or your personal life we as humans, fear change and fear of the unknown. I think that that is, uh, a huge reason why we see this type of behavior.
Ron:
Yeah. That's, that's good insight. I, I couldn't agree. More loss of control, fear of the unknown and change represents absolutely represents those things. So that, that makes sense to me. Have you ever had a stick in the mud manager and if so, had you address it?
Jason:
Uh, yes. I've definitely had those types of managers. I think addressing these types of managers is something we all at some point need to do. And often times it's on a regular ongoing basis. I think it's important to get to know each one of your managers on some sort of level that allows you to connect with them in some sort of way. I would try to find some common interests that I have with a person. Maybe it's the hobby or just something that maybe we're both passionate about to, um, try to establish a connection.
Ron:
Jason, can I interrupt you for one second? There are a, a lot of technical managers who are listening to this cast and, and they might start thinking at this moment, wait a minute, are we going to get into a circle and sing kumbaya? We got to be best friends with all of our employees. Is that what you're saying?
Jason:
No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that you need to work towards having him a mutual, respectful working relationship. I'll give you an example. I'm very passionate about lean management and the importance of continuous improvement. So using this passion, I will always ask them how they think they can improve their department. And what can I do to help and this can often be met with resistance, but when thought through correctly, I believe a series of questions can be asked that leads them to the realization. That change has to be inevitable in all we do. Maybe it's not today, but are we prepared for tomorrow?
Ron:
Right. Okay. So a moment ago, I, in, I interrupted you because I know that certain cynical managers, that might start to tune out if we go too far down the relationship road, but you are starting to tell me what, how you address the stick in the mud manager. You develop a respect based relationship with them, and then what correct.
Jason:
And then I'll try to ask them a series of questions that leads them to the obvious, try to get them involved and making those changes and, and you just have to really work with them to understand that, , to move forward, we have to always be, be looking in the future.
Ron:
Okay. And what if they don't, what if they don't want to come with you?
Jason:
That that can be problematic. Absolutely. I think that's where an organization has to always be looking to also improve their employees by sending them the classes and maybe these types of supervisors or managers would benefit from programs or classes that they can take that will help them work through these problems.
Ron:
So somebody is stuck in a place where they're doing the H double hockey sticks. Hell No we won't go thing on change. What kind of course could help them overcome that?
Jason:
Um, I think there are several courses and sometimes I think it has to be a, a series of courses that, that leads up to that. I think one of the best courses that I've taken that honestly was, was taught by the one and only Ron hurst.
Ron:
Okay. This wasn't like a promotional moment. <laugh> no,
Jason:
It's definitely not a promotion, but, social and self-awareness are huge. Yeah. And I think that when people can recognize those awareness’s in, in how their behavior is in a social environment, as well as how other people's behavior is, I think is the first step. And, and when they can recognize incidents or examples of where issues occur, I think then they can start to work through and understand that we have to be open minded as people, and we have to be able to work in, in a team. And in that our perspective on things is not always the only answer and sometimes right there, there are answers out there or solutions that are better than, than what we've come up with. And, , multiple minds working on a problem are, are far better than just one individual working through it. So I think there's a series of classes that can be taken and, and help people work through the obstinance of not wanting to, to move forward with the company. Yeah.
Ron:
That's interesting. I, I couldn't agree more that I think it begins with self-awareness. I honestly believe if I go back to that question, what do you think causes this behavior? I think that they aren't even aware that they're operating from a place of fear. And if they agreed, if they were actually able to recognize the fear, they might make a different choice, but recognizing the fear requires self-awareness. And that often is the first step to change is, is recognizing it's there's this one model that talks about you got to unfreeze the behaviors that you've followed, which for me means you got to be even aware that they're there and then you can change the behavior and create a different outcome. So I, I think that's a really important point, Jason, that we've to be aware in the moment and then make a choice because there's a gap, right? There's a gap between what we're getting and what we want. And whenever we see the gap, then we can, we can pursue a process of change. But if you don't see the gap because you're doing what you've always done nothing's going to happen. So, all right. Let me change gears a little bit and poke, poke a little bit of fun. How do you know Jason that you are not the stick in the mud manager?
Jason:
Well, I, I certainly hope I'm not a stick in the mud manager. I think at some point in our life, we all, we all have been a stick in the mud somewhere maybe not from a professional level, but our lives outside of work as well. I think being very passionate about one's belief can be very dangerous if not expressed with an open mind. I said earlier I was a passionate about continuous improvement, that goes for me as a person as well. I think for me, I have to do a lot of self-reflection and ask myself, how can I, how can I improve? how could I handle things differently in the future maybe? Or am I being, open minded? Can I see someone else's point of view? So I think we have to always self-reflect and, and make sure that we are carrying ourselves with an open mind, because once you're closed minded, now you're in the danger zone of, of being that stick in the mud manager.
Ron:
I could probably go step further and say that you're not in the danger zone. You are the stick in the mud manager, if you have a closed mind. Correct. I mean, it's, it's almost the same definition. It's, you're not open to another way of being, you're not open to changing from where you're at. So I think that's really good. So what, what I'm hearing you say is, is that you engage in a process of continuous learning and reflection and you pursue the discipline of maintaining an open, open mind, open perspective to other points of view. Is that correct?
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely.
Ron:
Yeah. I think no, that's really good. Definitely. All right. So final question. What advice do you want to offer other senior business leaders when dealing with a stick in the mud phenomenon or a stick in the mud manager?
Jason:
Well, I think you, you might want to use some coaching and mentoring principles, I think from a coaching perspective start by asking powerful questions that expand thoughts. Yeah. Actively listen to their input and maybe identify limiting beliefs. And then from a mentoring perspective share similar success stories that you personally experienced when you were working at that level of management and I think it all boils down to knowing what are the right questions to ask that person,
Ron:
Then what are the right questions to ask that person?
Jason:
Well, I think it depends on the person I think if you can identify using your social awareness skills that you've learned, if you can each person's going to be a little bit different. So through observations, if you're watching them react to certain situations or incidents or things like that, it'll help paint a picture in, in the path that you need to ask questions to lead them down, down the path, to the correct answers and, and fixing it. So I think, you really have to know your managers and, what's going on at, at, at the level of their department
Ron:
Yeah. I completely agree. You really have to know your managers and know, as in you have to be in, in trust based respectful relationship. Now I do want to explore one idea that you've, you've mentioned this a couple of times to lead them down the path to the correct answers has, if it's, if I think about what you just said, it's entirely possible that as a, as cynical manager, I'm not one, but I could see a cynical manager going. So you're trying to manipulate them into the answer that you want. How do you react to that?
Jason:
Well, I don't think it's about manipulation. I think, for example, if you have a situation and, let's use an example where production has fallen 25% in the last week and mm-hmm, maybe there's a lot of rework or scrap that's being done. And perhaps it's because you have some new employees and you maybe they haven't been properly trained on a correct process or procedure. Okay. And by being out on the floor through observation, you can see how corners are being cut and to you, it's clearly obvious where, where the mistakes are happening. I think by involving that manager and asking him a series of questions that are going to lead to the solution of the new employees not being properly trained. I don't think that's manipulating them. I think it's just helping them be actively involved in finding the answer. Yeah. Rather than me just locking up and saying, Hey, you need to training employees and, your problems are going to go away. I think that by involving them and asking them their input I think you're going to go a little bit further in that regard rather than just coming into their department and, and mandating some changes.
Ron:
Okay. So when you say is, we don't want to tell that that lower level manager what to do we want to ask them to assess the situation and then take the appropriate action. Correct. So let me push back just a little bit more on this point. Does it matter what the actual, I mean, there may not be one cause for the underperformance or maybe multiple causes if they get to get to a second one, are you okay with that? If they fix the second one instead of the first,
Jason:
Absolutely. Well, I think if they come to a different answer or resolution and, and they fix it, I think at that point we can certainly take a look at it. And if there's improvements then maybe you challenge them to, to look even further first congratulate them on, on a job. Well-done of, yeah. maybe in the example that I use, maybe the lack of production went from minus 25% to 12 and a half percent or something like that. And, and so you saw improvement, so congratulate them on, on the win for that, but then encourage them to take it a step for themselves to work through and continue the improvement of the department.
Ron:
I love that point. Because as you said earlier, it's all about continuous improvement, both personally and professionally. I love the idea of congratulating and giving the employee some recognition for a job well done and then coming back to them and go literally, what else can we do? Right. So we are looking for the next cause the next reason why underperformance is there because we don't want to just stop. I mean, we've got 12 and a half percent better in your example. Sure. But we know we were 25% below the goal, so we want to keep them looking. And ultimately I'm reminded of a quote by Zig Zigler who once said of, of management that anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first. And that seems like a weird quote until you apply it to the idea of delegating and teaching. If an employee can solve a problem, maybe a little less effectively than you, but they solve it, that's a win. Now you want to reinforce the win and then you want to encourage them to go after the next win because after a while they'll be just as good at it as you are. And when they're as good at, as you, they're no longer a stick in the mud, they're actually helping the organization.
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely.
Ron:
Yeah. All right, Jason, thank you so much for being on this cast. Any final thoughts you want to offer our audience on this, on this topic of sticking the mud?
Jason:
Uh, no I think it, it was a pleasure being on, on the podcast and I will say the, it, it isn't inevitable that we will always at some point in our career run into a stick in the mud and we just have to be prepared to properly handle the, the, situations as they arise.
Ron:
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And most importantly, something you said in there, we have to deal with it. We can't just do the Laisez faire management and just hope it goes away, because it's not going anywhere and it's going to affect your culture as we talked about and your actual measurable productivity quality, et cetera. So really good point. Okay. So thank you again for coming on the cast. I look forward to talking to you further. Take care, man.
Jason:
Thanks take care. Bye bye. Okay.
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Ron:
All right, everyone. Welcome back to it's your business lead it podcast. And in this special episode, I'm going to be interviewing a friend colleague and former client by the name of Jason Flejter. Jason is the director of manufacturing for a, a local Southern California manufacturing firm. He'll tell you all about that in a few minutes. I'm really excited to introduce you all to Jason. So Jason, welcome to the cast.
Jason:
Hi everyone. And thanks Ron. I, I really appreciate it. it's an honor to be asked to be on this podcast. I'm I'm excited for this. Well, cool.
Ron:
I'm glad you are.
Jason:
Uh, a little bit about myself. I've worked, I've worked in manufacturing for almost two decades in various industries from aerospace to automotive. I started out on the production floor as a welder and over the years, I slowly made my way up through the ranks, having various positions in production management. planning, purchasing logistics and inventory controls, operations management, which brings me to my present day job of building micro factories that produce solar panels from a nonprofit business model. So, , it's, uh, it's been quite the journey and, and I love what I do
Ron:
Yeah, I can imagine. And wait a minute. Did you just say not for profit and manufacturing in the same sentence?
Jason:
Absolutely. And it's, something that, coming from a lean management perspective, it's been hard for me to wrap my hands or my head around nonprofit business model, but I got to say it's completely different and refreshing to say the least.
Ron:
Yeah. And I know we could have another conversation. I know when we went to lunch the other day, you were telling me about some of the insights and the light bulb moments that, that, and that not for profit perspective, brought to your view on manufacturing. That's not what we're here to talk about today. There is one thing that, that stood out as you're sharing a little bit about your background, and that was that you've been in a number of different positions, starting from the shop floor and working your way up. And I'm curious, how did that affect the way you see manufacturing, leadership?
Jason:
That's a great question. I can remember when I was on the shop floor and I was welding every single day and I saw changes made on a regular basis and there was some changes that you would just scratch your head and you always felt it was, maybe in us versus them. Then as I slowly started working my way off the shop floor I was given an opportunity by the company I worked for at the time they started to pay for my school while I pursued a management degree. Once I was back in school and I got into expediting was the first position that they gave me. But as I started to get into some of these roles, I would always fall back on my experiences of what I saw from a shop floor perspective. Right. I remember at times saying when I get to be a manager, I'm going to make sure that I don't the same mistake. From that perspective of what are your frontline workers seeing. I think it was very powerful experiences that have led me to my success today.
Ron:
Yeah, no doubt. I mean, when you bring that shop floor perspective into a leadership role, it gives you the ability to have some empathy for what people are going through and the frontline employees that are looking at you going, who made this stupid idea. I mean, it just, gives you such a different perspective.
Jason:
Yeah, it sure does. And, and like I said, I just I'm grateful for having those experiences. Because I think it makes me a better manager today.
Ron:
Sure. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And as you know, my background is very similar. I started my career in a pit underneath a Chevy Silverado in 1984, literally in a pit, I had to crawl up out of a pit at the end of every day, so totally get it. So Jason, one of the things that I wanted to bring you on this cast and talk about was a podcast that released recently called stick in the mud managers and the idea of a stick in the mud manager. And it doesn't matter whether it's a lead, a supervisor, frontline manager, a kind of mid-level manager, director, et cetera, is that sometimes they become the stick in the mud that resists change. And that's really what that cast was all about and how to deal with the stick in the mud manager who resists change. So when you hear that phrase, the stick in the mud manager, what comes to mind for you?
Jason:
I don't want to say that I cringe, but it could be some of that that could be difficult to work with or for, maybe they're super controlling or they're hardheaded or even close minded. They could be very probably, like very matter of fact, or and sometimes they can be problematic. those are my first, first thoughts that jump to mind.
Ron:
Oh my gosh. And I'll tell you what I get so excited when I hear your response to that question. Because, you know, a couple of years ago I created a YouTube series called land and the knuckleheads, and these are the people that I been talking about, the whole hardheaded manager that doesn't listen, that doesn't want, hear perspectives other than their own. And they just want to keep it the same. And then you get these other managers who are so stuck in this, this rule book, following the rule book mentality, and that's all well and good when you live in a, in a really fixed kind of low change environment, but, um, who lives there? <laugh>
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a fine line. When I think a lot of managers get hung up by, let's say from a manufacturing perspective and this could just from a process point of view if a process is working oftentimes people don't want to change that process because it is working. But on the other hand we have to always take in mind, , continuous improvement how do we make those processes better? So that's where you can definitely have a challenge on your hands with that stick in the mud manager, for sure.
Ron:
Yeah, absolutely. And you're foreshadowing a future podcast episode, if it ain't broke, break it anyway, don't fix,
Jason:
Oh, break it
Ron:
Anyway. I'm not one of those managers that wants to just keep things the same for the sake of keeping it the same. I mean, there's always an opportunity for continuous improvement, so yeah. How would you assess the impact of the stick on the mu in the mud manager on organizational performance? What, what is, what's the impact that they create?
Jason:
Well, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is, how does this person affect the culture? is this manager's behavior or personality cancerous are there any indicators or recorded incidents that are affecting production output, or maybe from a quality perspective, all of a sudden you see a dip in, , mistakes or creating good products. So, other areas that can't be measured, um, using metrics how do you, how do you understand those things? So an example might be team dynamics within that person's department. Does that person, or, or do people work well each other, or even as a team in the department or is there some sort of chasm between workers and how does this manager's behavior, have an effect upstream or downstream, right of their department. So there, some things can be measured in some things can't be, so you really have to take a good, hard look and deep dive at how does that be behavior really affect organizational performance? Because it's not just in the production aspect of things, there's other areas that it can deeply affect.
Ron:
Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought that up because I think is really crucial. Another cast we did recently is looking at the process of how cultures are built and how you change them. If you don't manage the details around culture is a really great way of thinking about, about organizational culture. And that is that organizational culture is how my manager treats me. And I think it's, it's kind of a micro look, but I think it's absolutely on point. And when you say a manager and how they treat their employees, is there a chasm between the different employees? The fascinating thing about that, Jason is that often employees don't have the, the emotional intelligence or the maturity to know how to deal with conflict on their own. So who do they go to? They go to their manager.
Ron:
And if the manager is the creator of the chasm in the first place, they've got out nowhere to go now, and they're just, they're going to be left trying to figure it out and you get different groups. And it's almost like certain employees are, are, are voted off the island, if you will. And, and they're left defend for themselves. And that that's where culture starts to impact the actual productivity and the quality and the efficiency measures as well. So it definitely does affect both. You're absolutely right. I'm curious though, let's think about this stick in the mud manager, a little deeper, what do you think causes that behavior? Why would a manager go there and, and act that way?
Jason:
I think the root we're here that we're look looking for honestly, is, is it comes down to fear, fear of change. Yeah. Perhaps fear of failure, maybe fear of losing control. I think that it's a person's natural instinct to, be fearful of change. Right in, in so many different regards, whether it be in a work environment or your personal life we as humans, fear change and fear of the unknown. I think that that is, uh, a huge reason why we see this type of behavior.
Ron:
Yeah. That's, that's good insight. I, I couldn't agree. More loss of control, fear of the unknown and change represents absolutely represents those things. So that, that makes sense to me. Have you ever had a stick in the mud manager and if so, had you address it?
Jason:
Uh, yes. I've definitely had those types of managers. I think addressing these types of managers is something we all at some point need to do. And often times it's on a regular ongoing basis. I think it's important to get to know each one of your managers on some sort of level that allows you to connect with them in some sort of way. I would try to find some common interests that I have with a person. Maybe it's the hobby or just something that maybe we're both passionate about to, um, try to establish a connection.
Ron:
Jason, can I interrupt you for one second? There are a, a lot of technical managers who are listening to this cast and, and they might start thinking at this moment, wait a minute, are we going to get into a circle and sing kumbaya? We got to be best friends with all of our employees. Is that what you're saying?
Jason:
No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that you need to work towards having him a mutual, respectful working relationship. I'll give you an example. I'm very passionate about lean management and the importance of continuous improvement. So using this passion, I will always ask them how they think they can improve their department. And what can I do to help and this can often be met with resistance, but when thought through correctly, I believe a series of questions can be asked that leads them to the realization. That change has to be inevitable in all we do. Maybe it's not today, but are we prepared for tomorrow?
Ron:
Right. Okay. So a moment ago, I, in, I interrupted you because I know that certain cynical managers, that might start to tune out if we go too far down the relationship road, but you are starting to tell me what, how you address the stick in the mud manager. You develop a respect based relationship with them, and then what correct.
Jason:
And then I'll try to ask them a series of questions that leads them to the obvious, try to get them involved and making those changes and, and you just have to really work with them to understand that, , to move forward, we have to always be, be looking in the future.
Ron:
Okay. And what if they don't, what if they don't want to come with you?
Jason:
That that can be problematic. Absolutely. I think that's where an organization has to always be looking to also improve their employees by sending them the classes and maybe these types of supervisors or managers would benefit from programs or classes that they can take that will help them work through these problems.
Ron:
So somebody is stuck in a place where they're doing the H double hockey sticks. Hell No we won't go thing on change. What kind of course could help them overcome that?
Jason:
Um, I think there are several courses and sometimes I think it has to be a, a series of courses that, that leads up to that. I think one of the best courses that I've taken that honestly was, was taught by the one and only Ron hurst.
Ron:
Okay. This wasn't like a promotional moment. <laugh> no,
Jason:
It's definitely not a promotion, but, social and self-awareness are huge. Yeah. And I think that when people can recognize those awareness’s in, in how their behavior is in a social environment, as well as how other people's behavior is, I think is the first step. And, and when they can recognize incidents or examples of where issues occur, I think then they can start to work through and understand that we have to be open minded as people, and we have to be able to work in, in a team. And in that our perspective on things is not always the only answer and sometimes right there, there are answers out there or solutions that are better than, than what we've come up with. And, , multiple minds working on a problem are, are far better than just one individual working through it. So I think there's a series of classes that can be taken and, and help people work through the obstinance of not wanting to, to move forward with the company. Yeah.
Ron:
That's interesting. I, I couldn't agree more that I think it begins with self-awareness. I honestly believe if I go back to that question, what do you think causes this behavior? I think that they aren't even aware that they're operating from a place of fear. And if they agreed, if they were actually able to recognize the fear, they might make a different choice, but recognizing the fear requires self-awareness. And that often is the first step to change is, is recognizing it's there's this one model that talks about you got to unfreeze the behaviors that you've followed, which for me means you got to be even aware that they're there and then you can change the behavior and create a different outcome. So I, I think that's a really important point, Jason, that we've to be aware in the moment and then make a choice because there's a gap, right? There's a gap between what we're getting and what we want. And whenever we see the gap, then we can, we can pursue a process of change. But if you don't see the gap because you're doing what you've always done nothing's going to happen. So, all right. Let me change gears a little bit and poke, poke a little bit of fun. How do you know Jason that you are not the stick in the mud manager?
Jason:
Well, I, I certainly hope I'm not a stick in the mud manager. I think at some point in our life, we all, we all have been a stick in the mud somewhere maybe not from a professional level, but our lives outside of work as well. I think being very passionate about one's belief can be very dangerous if not expressed with an open mind. I said earlier I was a passionate about continuous improvement, that goes for me as a person as well. I think for me, I have to do a lot of self-reflection and ask myself, how can I, how can I improve? how could I handle things differently in the future maybe? Or am I being, open minded? Can I see someone else's point of view? So I think we have to always self-reflect and, and make sure that we are carrying ourselves with an open mind, because once you're closed minded, now you're in the danger zone of, of being that stick in the mud manager.
Ron:
I could probably go step further and say that you're not in the danger zone. You are the stick in the mud manager, if you have a closed mind. Correct. I mean, it's, it's almost the same definition. It's, you're not open to another way of being, you're not open to changing from where you're at. So I think that's really good. So what, what I'm hearing you say is, is that you engage in a process of continuous learning and reflection and you pursue the discipline of maintaining an open, open mind, open perspective to other points of view. Is that correct?
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely.
Ron:
Yeah. I think no, that's really good. Definitely. All right. So final question. What advice do you want to offer other senior business leaders when dealing with a stick in the mud phenomenon or a stick in the mud manager?
Jason:
Well, I think you, you might want to use some coaching and mentoring principles, I think from a coaching perspective start by asking powerful questions that expand thoughts. Yeah. Actively listen to their input and maybe identify limiting beliefs. And then from a mentoring perspective share similar success stories that you personally experienced when you were working at that level of management and I think it all boils down to knowing what are the right questions to ask that person,
Ron:
Then what are the right questions to ask that person?
Jason:
Well, I think it depends on the person I think if you can identify using your social awareness skills that you've learned, if you can each person's going to be a little bit different. So through observations, if you're watching them react to certain situations or incidents or things like that, it'll help paint a picture in, in the path that you need to ask questions to lead them down, down the path, to the correct answers and, and fixing it. So I think, you really have to know your managers and, what's going on at, at, at the level of their department
Ron:
Yeah. I completely agree. You really have to know your managers and know, as in you have to be in, in trust based respectful relationship. Now I do want to explore one idea that you've, you've mentioned this a couple of times to lead them down the path to the correct answers has, if it's, if I think about what you just said, it's entirely possible that as a, as cynical manager, I'm not one, but I could see a cynical manager going. So you're trying to manipulate them into the answer that you want. How do you react to that?
Jason:
Well, I don't think it's about manipulation. I think, for example, if you have a situation and, let's use an example where production has fallen 25% in the last week and mm-hmm, maybe there's a lot of rework or scrap that's being done. And perhaps it's because you have some new employees and you maybe they haven't been properly trained on a correct process or procedure. Okay. And by being out on the floor through observation, you can see how corners are being cut and to you, it's clearly obvious where, where the mistakes are happening. I think by involving that manager and asking him a series of questions that are going to lead to the solution of the new employees not being properly trained. I don't think that's manipulating them. I think it's just helping them be actively involved in finding the answer. Yeah. Rather than me just locking up and saying, Hey, you need to training employees and, your problems are going to go away. I think that by involving them and asking them their input I think you're going to go a little bit further in that regard rather than just coming into their department and, and mandating some changes.
Ron:
Okay. So when you say is, we don't want to tell that that lower level manager what to do we want to ask them to assess the situation and then take the appropriate action. Correct. So let me push back just a little bit more on this point. Does it matter what the actual, I mean, there may not be one cause for the underperformance or maybe multiple causes if they get to get to a second one, are you okay with that? If they fix the second one instead of the first,
Jason:
Absolutely. Well, I think if they come to a different answer or resolution and, and they fix it, I think at that point we can certainly take a look at it. And if there's improvements then maybe you challenge them to, to look even further first congratulate them on, on a job. Well-done of, yeah. maybe in the example that I use, maybe the lack of production went from minus 25% to 12 and a half percent or something like that. And, and so you saw improvement, so congratulate them on, on the win for that, but then encourage them to take it a step for themselves to work through and continue the improvement of the department.
Ron:
I love that point. Because as you said earlier, it's all about continuous improvement, both personally and professionally. I love the idea of congratulating and giving the employee some recognition for a job well done and then coming back to them and go literally, what else can we do? Right. So we are looking for the next cause the next reason why underperformance is there because we don't want to just stop. I mean, we've got 12 and a half percent better in your example. Sure. But we know we were 25% below the goal, so we want to keep them looking. And ultimately I'm reminded of a quote by Zig Zigler who once said of, of management that anything worth doing is worth doing poorly at first. And that seems like a weird quote until you apply it to the idea of delegating and teaching. If an employee can solve a problem, maybe a little less effectively than you, but they solve it, that's a win. Now you want to reinforce the win and then you want to encourage them to go after the next win because after a while they'll be just as good at it as you are. And when they're as good at, as you, they're no longer a stick in the mud, they're actually helping the organization.
Jason:
Yeah, absolutely.
Ron:
Yeah. All right, Jason, thank you so much for being on this cast. Any final thoughts you want to offer our audience on this, on this topic of sticking the mud?
Jason:
Uh, no I think it, it was a pleasure being on, on the podcast and I will say the, it, it isn't inevitable that we will always at some point in our career run into a stick in the mud and we just have to be prepared to properly handle the, the, situations as they arise.
Ron:
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And most importantly, something you said in there, we have to deal with it. We can't just do the Laisez faire management and just hope it goes away, because it's not going anywhere and it's going to affect your culture as we talked about and your actual measurable productivity quality, et cetera. So really good point. Okay. So thank you again for coming on the cast. I look forward to talking to you further. Take care, man.
Jason:
Thanks take care. Bye bye. Okay.
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